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[机型] 美四代战机F35“闪电2”专题讨论贴

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 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-3 02:21 | 显示全部楼层
DATE:22/01/10
SOURCE:Flight International

Israel sets sights on two-seater F-35
By Stephen Trimble



The role of Israeli industry in the F-35 programme remains one of the last undecided pieces in Lockheed Martin's vast supply chain for the stealth fighter.

While the Israeli ministry of defence negotiates pricing on 25 requested F-35s, with options to purchase 50 more, Israeli companies each want to share in the presumed industrial benefits.

Israel Aerospace Industries, for example, foresees opportunities to participate in major upgrades and redesigns for the currently single-seat F-35 stealth fighter. IAI has even considered playing a role in the development of a two-seat variant.

"That's possible," an IAI executive says. "There is a known demand for two seats not only from Israel but from other air forces. Advanced aircraft are usually two seats rather than single seats."

All three variants of the F-35 are designed with a single seat. Programme officials have cited new advances in avionics and sensor fusion technology, which can allow a single pilot to perform missions that previously required two crew members.

The single-seat configuration also maximises commonality between the three variants. However, the programme has acknowledged plans for unspecified "follow-on development" work.

A recent US Navy analysis of F-35 cost estimates briefed internally on 4 January cited "upward pressure" posed by follow-on development work, as well as ship integration costs.

More immediately, Israeli industry wants a major role in the supply chain for the baseline aircraft, to include installing locally developed weapons and sensors on Israeli air force fighters.

The joint programme office has reportedly agreed to integrate the Rafael Python missile on the F-35. However, radars made by IAI's Elta Systems and Israeli-made electronic warfare equipment are still in debate.

Meanwhile, IAI plans to expand its aerostructures business, which already includes wings and horizontal stabilisers for F-15s and F-16s, with F-35 work, as well.

It also remains unclear how F-35s purchased by the Israeli air force will be maintained. Lockheed plans to consolidate European depot maintenance work in Italy. Israeli industry, however, believes that F-35 depot maintenance should be performed within national borders.

For its part, Lockheed so far is not explaining how much work it plans to offer Israel's industrial base.

"Lockheed Martin is developing an industrial participation plan for Israel industry in anticipation of Israel procuring the F-35," Lockheed says. "The plan will include work opportunities for Israel industry on the F-35 programme based on the programme's best-value tenet."
PL15 发表于 2010-2-5 21:39 | 显示全部楼层
f35就是美帝研制的够用的飞机而已,看看t50,隐身会比f35好吗?最多就是高速性能稍微好点,航电上肯定被菜,高风险目标靠以后的高速隐身巡航导弹和f22带小直径炸弹就搞定了,f35本身就是打杂的东西,靠数量来取胜。

    不管怎么化代,反正它足够应付未来的威胁,至于是不是4代(或者说现在美帝改称的5代)都不影响它能够应付未来三十年出现的威胁。

    就tg的四代,我个人认为,能和t50差不多就烧高香了,航电、发动机、材料,tg都没有超越毛子的能力。至于钞票,就tg的管理能力又有多少能花在刀刃呢......
costrave 发表于 2010-2-3 10:18



F35拼数量?英国泪流满面,最初报价3500w美刀,比F16还便宜哦,天上掉馅饼哦, 。现在超一个亿美刀一架...

现在这个T50显然不是4代,那么毛国的航电,发动机,材料也就没有得到验证。置于管理能力和钞票要问普大统领了,还要人家亲自出马来保证资金,这个管理还真是问题啊。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-6 00:05 | 显示全部楼层
DATE:03/02/10
SOURCE:Flight International


SINGAPORE 2010: Leadership turmoil hits F-35 programme
By Stephen Trimble



The surprise firing of the US government programme manager and the withholding of a $614 million incentive fee overshadowed Lockheed Martin's plans to showcase the F-35 at the Singapore air show, where the host air force has started down the path of acquiring the stealth fighter.

But Lockheed executives strove to emphasise the positives in the wake of Secretary of Defense Robert Gates' revelations as he unveiled the US Department of Defense's fiscal year 2011 budget request on 1 February.

Brig Gen David Heinz, who inherited the programme a year ago, will be replaced by a three-star general or admiral, with the higher-ranking officer signalling a new commitment to resolving the programme's problems.

Moreover, the Pentagon moved $2.8 billion from F-35 production into the research and development account, but the overall budget remained steady at nearly $11 billion in FY2011, says Steve O'Bryan, Lockheed vice-president for business development.

Although the DoD slashed production by five jets, one F-35 was added to the its pending request for emergency war funding. O'Bryan casts that decision as an indication that the Pentagon views the F-35 as relevant for current operations.

Lockheed also announced that the third flight-test aircraft for the short take-off and vertical landing programme - dubbed BF-3 - has achieved first flight. This was more than one year behind the original schedule, but Lockheed portrayed the event as another sign of progress.

Lockheed may also have an opportunity to recover the entire incentive fee that Gates has put on hold. Portions of the fee could be released as Lockheed completes certain tasks. Both sides are negotiating the terms for measuring Lockheed's performance to recover the $614 million currently on hold, O'Bryan says.

For its part, F135 engine supplier Pratt & Whitney also reported progress with improving the powerplant's reliability and affordability. The US Navy had identified four "items of interest" with the BF-1 flight-test aircraft, says Tom Farmer, president of P&W's military engines. P&W has already addressed concerns about a "clutch heat-up" problem, and a turbine blade fatigue issue discovered a year ago, he says.

P&W also has committed to absorb any cost overruns as it builds the next lot of production engines, rather than passing on the extra cost to the government, says William Begert, vice-president of business development.

However, the pressure will only continue to grow on Lockheed's performance as a series of key milestones approaches. Lockheed is due to deliver the first production F-35As to Eglin AFB, Florida, to launch training in the third quarter, even though the AF-1 flight-test aircraft has flown only once so far.

Despite ferrying to NAS Patuxent River in November, the BF-1 flight-test aircraft has completed only two of the 12 flights necessary to achieve the programme's first vertical landing. That milestone had slipped from last June to "early" 2010, but programme officials now describe the event as scheduled for "later this year".
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-6 00:07 | 显示全部楼层
DATE:02/02/10
SOURCE:Flight International
SINGAPORE 2010: Lockheed may deliver more F-35s than DoD buys
By Stephen Trimble



Although the US Department of Defense has announced slashing four F-35 jets and firing the government's programme manager, Lockheed Martin says it could deliver more aircraft in 2013 than the military pays for to keep unit costs from spiralling upwards.

The DoD may allow Lockheed the "opportunity" to deliver more F-35s than specifically on contract, Lockheed vice-president for business development George Standridge told Flightglobal at the Singapore airshow.

Under this scenario, Lockheed would continue to build aircraft based on prices set in the 2007 selected acquisition report. Meanwhile, the DoD has decided to fund the programme based on higher cost projections set by the second annual review by the Joint Estimating Team. For the same price, Lockheed may be able to deliver more than 43 F-35s.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates acknowledged that possibility when he announced the budget cuts in a briefing at the Pentagon on 1 February. Gates described the fiscal year 2011 budget request as seeking a "buy of 43 aircraft and possibly more, depending on contractor performance".

Gates also announced that F-35 programme executive officer Brig Gen David Heinz will be replaced by a three-star general. Before his dismissal, Heinz had actually been selected for promotion to major general, so Gates's move elevates the position's standing from two-star rank to three-star rank.

Asked if Lockheed also anticipates a change of leadership, Standridge did not give a direct reply. But he acknowledges that Lockheed accepts that the DoD will hold the company accountable for its performance. For his part, Gates announced that he will withhold $614 million in performance fees from Lockheed. "The taxpayers should not have to bear the entire burden of getting the [F-35] programme back on track," he says.

The procurement cuts increase the pressure on Lockheed to keep reducing unit costs for the F-35, especially as foreign partners are expected to start buying production aircratf within the next two years.

Meanwhile, Lockheed also confirms that Singapore has started receiving classified briefings on the F-35. Singapore and Israel are both Security Cooperation Participants on the Joint Strike Fighter programme.
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-6 00:10 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 speed 于 2010-2-6 00:12 编辑

DATE:04/02/10
SOURCE:Flight International
Lockheed Martin sees F-35A replacing USAF air superiority F-15C/Ds
By Stephen Trimble



Lockheed Martin has countered a potential cut in US Air Force orders for its F-35A by claiming the in-development fighter could fill an air superiority role as well as the ground-attack mission for which it is officially designed.

The USAF officially lists the F-35's conventional take-off and landing variant as a ground-attack fighter complementing the air superiority mission, replacing only the Lockheed F-16 and the Fairchild A-10.

But Lockheed has added the Boeing F-15C/D air superiority fighter and F-15E Strike Eagles to its own speculative and unofficial list of aircraft the F-35A can replace. That allows it to claim the USAF's requirement to buy 1,763 F-35As over the next 20 years remains intact despite recent policy changes.

Lockheed provided the analysis to Flight International in response to questions about the potential impact of the 2010 Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR), which proposes to slash the USAF's theatre strike wing-equivalents to 10 to 11 wings.

The reduction potentially devastates the USAF's demand for 1,763 F-35As. If the USAF maintains a 72-aircraft wing structure, only 720 to 792 combat-coded fighters are needed to perform the F-35's primary mission. That role is currently performed by a mix of F-16s, A-10s and F-15Es. Lockheed's analysis assumes the mission would be performed exclusively by F-35s within 25 years.

"All the A-10s and F-15Es would reach their life during the USAF buy of F-35s [through 2035] with no other tactical strike platform to replace their full capability other than F-35s," Lockheed's analysis says.

Lockheed also makes a second major assumption. The analysis assumes the QDR plan to operate six air superiority wing-equivalents will include two wings of Lockheed F-22s and four wings of F-35As. Lockheed acknowledges the F-22 fleet is limited to 1-2/3 wings. The four wings of F-35As would replace the F-15C/Ds, according to Lockheed.

If the F-35A gains the new mission, the USAF requirement would rise to 14-15 wings, totalling between 1,008 and 1,080 combat-coded jets. Lockheed also estimates a need for another 593 to 636 jets required for training, test, depot and attrition reserve. The final number for the F-35A requirement ranges between 1,601 and 1,715 fighters, a total that Lockheed concludes is "in the noise" compared to the programme estimate of 1,763.

Steve O'Bryan, Lockheed vice-president for business development, supported Lockheed's analysis, saying a single F-35 provides the capability of six F-15s in air-to-air simulations. Although the F-35's projected top speed of Mach 1.6 falls short of the F-15's M2.5 maximum, O'Bryan says, the F-35's higher level of stealth offsets the F-15's speed advantage in calculations of overall survivability.

The F-35's prowess in the air superiority role has been debated, with one controversial Rand analysis in 2008 concluding the jet "can't turn, can't climb and can't run" fast enough to survive dogfights.

According to industry sources, an unnamed senior USAF officer said last year: "JSF is not an air dominance platform and we understand that."
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-6 00:12 | 显示全部楼层
连美国人自己都承认F35不是一种空中优势战斗机,而只是一种打击战斗机。
liii007 发表于 2010-2-7 18:05 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 liii007 于 2010-2-7 18:11 编辑

按照米帝的国防预算和空军白皮书,最近几年每年退役的3代机都是1、2百架...加上F35拖后腿...每年要消失的战斗机中队反正成片成片的...未来几年会加剧这种现象

个人觉得在航发、综合航电、雷达通讯、气动、隐身等技术上全面进步后,米帝应该会着手生产升级版F22吧
shaolin1254 发表于 2010-2-7 18:54 | 显示全部楼层
太贵,米帝也造不起。。。。。。
JK-SETI 发表于 2010-2-7 20:04 | 显示全部楼层
无意间找到两张F-35的图示。
这张是加工方法:


这张是使用材料:

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 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 11:34 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 speed 于 2010-2-10 11:42 编辑
那是美帝有一百多架f22,当然不需要f35执行空中优势任务。

      就像f16在美帝手里也是打杂 ...

costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 06:41


F16的机动性比起F15毫不逊色,在很多时候中F16执行的是空优任务。F35的机动性比起F22逊色一大截,其超音速机动性与普通的三代机相比可能更低,亚音速机动性与现有的F16持平。如果拿飞豹去对付那些那些F5或者是F104等二代战斗机,飞豹照样有优势,但是这不能改变飞豹只是一种战斗轰炸机的事实。在俄罗斯T50已经开始试飞,土鳖的四代即将上天的时候,F35的代距优势将随着其他国家的五代机的装备和服役而消失。

至于F35的价格,在研制进度已经大幅延迟的情况下,目前的价格只是阶段性的,还不是最终的价格,现在说F35比阵风便宜没有什么意义,因为F35离定型还有好几年,最后的价格还有可能继续大幅上涨。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 16:13 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 speed 于 2010-2-10 16:17 编辑
f35的亚音速机动性除了过失速机动性以外未必比f22差多少,实战情况下的跨音速加速能力除了台风以外没有其他 ...

costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 15:14


F35的跨音速加速性能连F16都远远不如,更何谈与台风战机相比了。至于有人传说F35能够超音速巡航,那更是一种因为无知或是迷信而成的误解。F35的一些基本性能在本主题开始的文章中就有介绍,机动性能比起三代机来并没有什么优势可言。

至于对付中俄的背景机,也不是F35的任务和目标,这个任务是由F22来负责的,F35的任务就是JSF项目一开始提出的目标-联合打击战斗机,对于F35来说争取空中优势并不是它的任务,对地打击才是它的主业。中俄的五代机即使隐身性能与F35相当,机动性能也要高于F35,而且还具备超音速巡航能力,这是F35所欠缺的。至于机载电子设备,在中俄都已研制出新型AESA雷达和新一代电子自卫干扰系统的情况下,F35在电子设备上的优势并不大,也不足以弥补F35在基本飞行性能上的差距。
绿林好汉 发表于 2010-2-10 18:40 | 显示全部楼层
这些不用争,许多情况都是推测。
不过,本人认为俄人和我们要搞出堪与F-22/35匹敌的战机,成本绝对不会比美国便宜。
尤其F-35,其批量之大,分摊费用国家之多,是没法比的。
而且美国人的基础太好、经验充足,搞四代机堪称游刃有余,而中俄两国是勉为其难。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 18:58 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 speed 于 2010-2-10 19:04 编辑
f-35跨音速加速性怎么就不如f-16了呢?反正以前看过f35的性能对比图,典型空战挂载下跨音速加速性和su30相同 ...

costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 17:59



F35都没怎么试飞,所谓的性能对比也只是猜测,只有航空周刊的报道相对权威。

F35的跨音速加速性能根据航空周刊的报道如下:该机当前布局(代号240-4)的准确性能仍是保密的,但据信具有如下性能:最大飞行速度为马赫数1.67;在3万英尺(9144米)高度从马赫数0.8加速到1.2需61秒;



洛克希德·马丁公司的试飞员也承认,尽管F-35飞机可利用其加力推力高达42000磅力(1,9051千克力)的F135发动机获得很高的初始加速度,但在速度和高度都进一步增加时,该机开始逐渐丧失优势。这可能部分地是因为该机横截面积为安排侧武器舱而显得过大,这就意味着在同样执行传统的“快速反应截击”(QRI)任务时,F-35可能不如其竞争对手。

http://www.9ifly.cn/sub/thread-1034-1-1.html



至于F35的雷达,研制的重点是增强了对地测绘的能力,可以提供实时高分辨率的数字地图,这是它的强项,其他的能力与其他国家的AESA雷达相比,并没有质的提升。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 19:08 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 speed 于 2010-2-10 19:14 编辑
至于毛国和tg的超音速巡航能力,先整出能用的发动机再说吧

costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 18:00


毛子现有的发动机改型,足以让T50实现超音速巡航。


TG的也是如此,超音速巡航并不是不可实现的性能,只要发动机的不加力推力和飞机的超音速升阻比达到一定的水平就可以达到,现有WS10发动机的某改型也足以让丝带机具备一定的超音速巡航能力。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 19:13 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 speed 于 2010-2-10 19:19 编辑
这些不用争,许多情况都是推测。
不过,本人认为俄人和我们要搞出堪与F-22/35匹敌的战机,成本绝对不会比美 ...
绿林好汉 发表于 2010-2-10 18:40



F35实际上是在研制三种不同用途的型号,其研制之复杂,研制费用之大,比F22都要惊人。


TG现阶段的特点恰恰是研制费用不贵,但是装备费用较高。如果研制费用高的和F22和F35差不多,也就不会出现有三种四代机未来甚至可能出现四种四代机在研的情况了。
waitforcv 发表于 2010-2-10 19:30 | 显示全部楼层
tg现阶段研制费用不贵,因此装备部队以后频频出问题,f119 f135研制期间用多少个发动机,太行用多少个,最后 ...
costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 19:27



    太行寿命短和研制费用没多大关系。。工业基础决定。
shaolin1254 发表于 2010-2-10 19:52 | 显示全部楼层
肯投钱工业基础就能提高?这是悖论呀。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 20:08 | 显示全部楼层
那当然,推重比极低的协和都能超音速飞行,不过像毛子增加后掠角付出的就是升力斜率低的代价。

...

costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 19:30


如果毛子的117性能真的能达到土星设计局的网页上公布的那样,T50实现超音速巡航基本是确定的,但如果是现阶段的117S则有点难说,可能只能实现跨音速巡航。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 20:11 | 显示全部楼层
tg现阶段研制费用不贵,因此装备部队以后频频出问题,f119 f135研制期间用多少个发动机,太行用多少个,最后 ...

costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 19:27


主要还是发动机的问题,发动机研制费用投入不足这个是老问题了。但应该说也是在逐渐改善,目前的新机该做的试验都做了,不会像以前那样遗留试验科目,等到定型后才补做,或者干脆就省略了某些试验科目。
 楼主| speed 发表于 2010-2-10 20:17 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 speed 于 2010-2-10 20:19 编辑
另外加速性的问题吗,要比较也要在同等条件下比较。

f-16其实是三代机里面跨音速加速性能相当好的一款飞 ...
costrave 发表于 2010-2-10 19:36



F16挂载导弹之后的加速性能肯定会有所下降,但是不会太多,毕竟对跨音速加速性能来说,影响最大的就是机体横截面积分布,而空空导弹和挂架对横截面积的增加贡献不大。F16挂载两枚中距空空导弹和两枚近距格斗导弹从M0.9加速到M1.6只需要59秒,这个时间比F35从M0.8加速到M1.2还要短。F35这个加速时间实在太长了,比起一般的三代机来说都远远不如。
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