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楼主: JSTCVW09CD
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[发动机] 俄罗斯军用发动机研发专题

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 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-25 23:12 | 显示全部楼层
 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-26 09:23 | 显示全部楼层
根据2011年7月份萨留特新CEO的专访, 2011年年底萨留特和土星将各自完整的第二阶段发动机总体初步设计方案递交给UEC。

由结果看来,显而易见,选择了土星作为总设计机构,负责发动机整体设计,萨留特作为子系统承包商负责子系统。

 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-26 09:25 | 显示全部楼层
JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-25 23:12
土星很诡异, 没有公布HPC的级数。

那么不是3511就是3611了。

由这个消息看来, 土星的整体设计,貌似采用了萨留特的3级LPC技术方案?
 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-26 22:41 | 显示全部楼层
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库兹涅佐夫正在研发PD-30发动机, 推力为30吨级。可能作为安-124-300的发动机

发动机的基本结构已经完成研发。

核心机基于现代化的NK-32发动机统一核心机。 该核心机正在CIAM进行测试中.........

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In Russia, the aircraft engine with a thrust of 30 tons being developed

New high power aircraft engine with a thrust of 30 tonnes under the symbol PD-30 can be set up within four to five years

This was stated by Chief Designer of "Kuznetsov " Dmitry Fedorchenko. "The relatively short period of time due to the low level of technical risks," - said Fedorchenko.

He explained that the main structural elements of the engine is developed, which will significantly reduce not only the time of its development, but also R & D spending.

According to him, "there are  engines with thrust of 30 tons and 40 tons in other countries, but in Russia the engines of this class do not exist yet." At the same time the development of aviation aircraft will require the engine with a thrust of 30 tons
"In addition, the engine with a 30-ton thrust may be necessary for heavy transport aircraft An-124-300" - said D.Fedorchenko.

He noted that the JSC "Kuznetsov" has extensive experience in developing high-performance engines. At the end of the last century, the company developed the engine NK-44  with a thrust of 44 tonnes.

Fedorchenko also announced that“ the basis of PD-30 will be the modified gas generator of engine NK-32. Now being tested in CIAM," - he said.


点评

皮尔姆的那个核心机搞到18吨以上就经济性开始下降了。 不过库局这个还没得到UEC的最终批复。  发表于 2012-4-27 07:37
J大,彼尔姆搞到18吨的PD18就截止了吧,接下来就直接库局30吨的PD30了?  发表于 2012-4-27 07:30
 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-26 22:42 | 显示全部楼层
JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-26 22:41
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库兹涅佐夫正在研发PD-30发动机, 推力为30吨级。可能作为安-124-300的发动机

现代化改进的NK-32统一核心机正在CIAM进行测试当中......看来新的NK-32M有点看头。
北极睿熊 发表于 2012-4-26 22:48 | 显示全部楼层
可以用于 研制中轰炸机吗?

点评

涵道比太大了吧。  发表于 2012-4-27 08:50
素数 发表于 2012-4-26 22:49 | 显示全部楼层
JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-25 23:12
土星很诡异, 没有公布HPC的级数。

那么不是3511就是3611了。

虚心请教这个T4,也就是涡轮后温度达到2100K说明什么?
功率吗?

点评

简单理解,其他条件相同的前提下,这个参数越高,性能越好;也可以说明材料和冷却技术高超,工业根底扎实!  发表于 2012-4-27 14:00
T4是涡轮前温度。 不是涡轮后。 代表什么? 百度会告诉你的吧。  发表于 2012-4-26 22:53
webomb 发表于 2012-4-27 17:47 | 显示全部楼层
  补充一下:如果技术基础相同的话,T4温度越高,发动机(热端)寿命越短。
蘑菇炖豆腐 发表于 2012-4-27 19:18 | 显示全部楼层
俄罗斯的T4温度不是涡轮前温度吧

点评

请一下,是什么温度?  发表于 2012-4-27 19:33
蘑菇炖豆腐 发表于 2012-4-27 19:51 | 显示全部楼层
我看过国防科技论坛的说法俄罗斯的T4温度和西方的不太一样,
http://oldbbs.81tech.com/read.php?tid-148048-fpage-3-page-2.html

T0为进气道前未受干扰的大气温度,T1为压气机进口前温度,T2为压气机出口温度,T3为涡轮前燃气温度,T4为发动机排气温度,T5为尾喷管出口温度。

点评

但是毛子这个燃烧室温度2100还不好说,三代航发也有燃烧室到2100的。AL-31加力燃烧室出口温度都到2000K呢,所以毛子这个2100是燃烧室内部还是燃烧室出口温度,没说明。  发表于 2012-4-29 07:17
第四代发动机的加力燃烧室温度也就是2100K,只是涡前温度大幅度提高  发表于 2012-4-28 21:15
从原理上说燃烧室温度应该是高于涡轮前温度的,现在居然是一摸一样,只能说有个数据是错的。  发表于 2012-4-28 11:51
如果报道有误,等着你来给咱们澄清吧。  发表于 2012-4-28 11:48
combustion chamber with a temperature of 2100K, and high-pressure turbine with a temperature of 2100K ,--------两个温度是一样的,表示怀疑,报道可能有误,燃烧室温度很难刚好等于高压涡轮温度吧。  发表于 2012-4-28 11:40
high-pressure turbine with a temperature of 2100K ," - said Burov on science and technology congress in Moscow.-----------------------------那你说这句话是指什么温度??  发表于 2012-4-27 20:20
蘑菇炖豆腐 发表于 2012-4-28 11:43 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 蘑菇炖豆腐 于 2012-4-28 11:45 编辑

美国的F119、F135的涡轮前温度也没有超过2000K,俄罗斯以前的发动机就更低了,这一下子就跨到2100K,我认为是报道错误,应该是别的温度,一下子跨越了几百K,这个跨度太大了,涡轮前温度即使提升几十K都是了不起的成绩,要一下子提升几百K,这在高温材料上不太可能。
 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-28 11:46 | 显示全部楼层
PD-14这个民用发动机的T4温度都1900K了....2-3万小时的TBO。

你认为第二阶段发动机的T4温度是多少?
mp586 发表于 2012-4-28 14:13 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 mp586 于 2012-4-28 14:15 编辑

我听说al-41从上世纪80年代就开始研制,90年代装上图-26实验,不知现在投入实用化了没有?


点评

是啊,142千牛的推力比起f135千牛差的很远。。  发表于 2012-4-28 15:28
117C是31F的改进型,能有多先进?  发表于 2012-4-28 14:56
看来117s的确先进啊..  发表于 2012-4-28 14:55
图26? 啥子飞机,没听说过。 41F没装机对象,用个啥子。 现在留里卡还有17,8台AL-41在仓库里面,可以工作的发动机。  发表于 2012-4-28 14:25
mp586 发表于 2012-4-28 14:53 | 显示全部楼层
图-26是图22m的一种流传编号,西方认为逆火和图22“眼罩”不是一种轰炸机,(逆火是变后掠翼),因此在军控谈判中需要限制,但苏联不这样认为,因此苏联宣布西方卫星发现这种新型轰炸机编号为图22m,意思它仅仅是图22的发展型,这样苏联就可以在军控谈判中取得主动了。。
 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-28 14:57 | 显示全部楼层
mp586 发表于 2012-4-28 14:53
图-26是图22m的一种流传编号,西方认为逆火和图22“眼罩”不是一种轰炸机,(逆火是变后掠翼),因此在军控 ...

估计你记错了吧

AL-41F的亚音速测试平台是图-16, 超音速测试飞行台是米格-25LL。
yuhouwucaihong 发表于 2012-4-28 15:13 | 显示全部楼层
JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-28 14:57
估计你记错了吧

AL-41F的亚音速测试平台是图-16, 超音速测试飞行台是米格-25LL。

那啥,西方的确有这么称呼图22M系列的

点评

就算用, 也没有用图-22M作为飞行台来测试41F哎。  发表于 2012-4-28 16:01
yuhouwucaihong 发表于 2012-4-28 17:24 | 显示全部楼层
JSTCVW09CD  就算用, 也没有用图-22M作为飞行台来测试41F哎。

嗯,不过米格25测试AL41的是LL吗?
米格31LL是试验弹射座椅,但是米格25那个空中发动机试车台还真没看到编号,不过知道是由米格25PD的第二架改的

点评

LL就是飞行试验台的意思。  发表于 2012-4-28 17:30
 楼主| JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-29 22:14 | 显示全部楼层
关于99M2发动机, 萨留特官方英文版。
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和117C性能指标差不多,除了寿命指标外。

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AL-31F M2 engine contemplated by OKB Sukhogo (Sukhoi Design Bureau)

28 February 2012, Moscow – Technical experts gathered at FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” for a conference to review the results of Salut's R&D efforts towards implementing the 2nd Phase of the AL-31F engine modernization (known as AL-31F M2). OKB Sukhogo is showing interest in the engine upgrade to pursue the repowering program of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft of the Russian Air Force.

The R&D appraisal meeting – the first one after a five years' pause – saw the participation of all the parties concerned: “OKB “Sukhogo”, “Lyulka NTTs”, “United Aircraft Corporation” and “United Engine-Building Corporation”. The project status report was presented by Sergey Rodyuk, who noted that all the activities for the second phase of the engine upgrade had been in close adherence to the specified timeframes. The special program of the 2nd phase engine bench tests in the climatic test facility at TsIAM has by now been completed with the results demonstrating the engine's capability of attaining 14 500 kgf of static thrust and proving its design performance parameters in flight conditions. Compared with the first-phase AL-31FM, the latest iteration has a 9% higher thrust during flight operation.

“The overall engine size will be subject to no trade-offs so as to keep the AL-31F upgrade conveniently suited for re-engining of the whole inventory of Su-27 aircraft without any additional airframe and engine nacelle modifications.” - said Gennady Skirdov, Salut's acting General Designer.

It is planned to have the program of special test-bench and endurance tests accomplished before the end of 2012 and go ahead with the special flight tests, which precede the state certification tests.

Vladislav Masalov, Director General of Salut, said that the full-scale deliveries of upgraded engines could be started as early as 2013. “The AL-31F M2 engine can be a not so expensive solution for re-engining of Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 fleet now operated by the Russian military and is likewise deliverable to foreign customers,” noted Director General. The technical specifications and requirements of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft call for the engines with increased thrust and improved fuel consumption with the AL-31F M2 fulfilling these requisites. The installation can be performed without any rework of the aircraft and take place in field conditions.

Relevant tips:

AL-31F M2 engine is a by-pass turbojet derived from the AL-31F propulsion system. The engine thrust at special power setting is 14 500 kgf. The specified life of the upgraded engine exceeds 3 000 hours. The engine features minimal differences with Series 3, 20 and 23 while offering enhanced propulsion performance characteristics with reduced specific fuel consumption, including at unaugmented power settings. Does not require airframe rework if installed on Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 aircraft to replace the older engine Series. The upgrading can take place when overhauling the earlier versions of engines. The re-engining makes for improved flight and operational performance of aircraft through enhancement of parameters and abolishing the oxygen-charging system. A better control accuracy and diagnosing efficiency are to provide additional benefits.
冲压 发表于 2012-4-29 22:59 | 显示全部楼层
JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-29 22:14
关于99M2发动机, 萨留特官方英文版。
-
和117C性能指标差不多,除了寿命指标外。

加力14.5吨和117C一样,不过静推力多少没说,3000小时的寿命比117C短?莫非117C有4000了

点评

台架加速疲劳测试和设计模拟计算都是设计测试过程中的,不是实物使用的。LM说F-22机体寿命多少,目前来说也是设计和疲劳测试得到的值,按照你的逻辑是不是也得等?  发表于 2012-4-30 00:06
实际上是你在嘴炮。什么东西都要等实物到寿了才验证,那个什么破设计和工程计算能力? 99M2设计寿命就是超过3000小时。  发表于 2012-4-30 00:03
等20-30年?这样说来寿命上117C嘴炮无异,还是FM2实在些。那么苏35现在装的117C寿命有多少,2000有吧  发表于 2012-4-29 23:49
117C设计是4000. 要等实际达到得等20-30年去了。  发表于 2012-4-29 23:14
GE大神 发表于 2012-4-30 11:13 | 显示全部楼层
JSTCVW09CD 发表于 2012-4-29 22:14
关于99M2发动机, 萨留特官方英文版。
-
和117C性能指标差不多,除了寿命指标外。

前途不好说,不知道某单有没有
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